Why Relationships Fail and How to Fix It with Keion Henderson

*This transcript was auto-generated*

Kim:

Oh. Oh, Amy, I hope you're listening to this.

Zac:

You're calling out Amy.

Keion Henderson:

Amy, I don't know who you are, but I love you, Amy.

Kim:

Go, honey. You need to know her.

Keion Henderson:

That is when people avoid intimacy because they don't want to be vulnerable.

Kim:

Amy, I hope you're listening to this. Get ready for the Kim Gravel show. Hey, y'all, Kim Gravel here. Kim Gravel show. I. I am so excited about the guest today. Let me tell you why. Several reasons.

Kim:

One, I totally follow and listen to everything he says on TikTok, Instagram, everywhere. He's got content, I'm following it. And he's got a new book out. Look at this. My guest this week is bestselling author and spiritual leader. He's the founder and senior pastor of the Lighthouse Church Ministries in Houston, Texas. Huge church. The fastest growing church or one of the fastest growing churches in America.

Kim:

His new book, lazy Love. I cannot wait, wait to find out what this is about, because God knows, I think Travis and I have a little bit of a lazy love. It is recognizing and reversing the four threats to any successful relationship. Guys and gals, I'm so excited about this interview. Please welcome Keion Henderson.

Keion Henderson:

I mean, I'm getting ready to call everybody and round them up and tell them, thank you for your services. I've got a new production team. No, that was amazing. Thank you so much.

Kim:

So, you know, Ken, you know, I went to school to study theology. I thought for sure God had called me into full time ministry. Until I went into it for a hot minute and thought, yeah, you know, that's not for me. God is good. But I'm not so sure that's for me. How long have you been in the ministry?

Keion Henderson:

Oh, my God. So I preached my first sermon in 1995. I was 14 years old. So we're going on 29 years.

Kim:

So let me just. I can't. First of all, you don't even look that old. How old are you?

Keion Henderson:

I'm 43.

Kim:

Oh, Lord. I'm 53. I'm 10 years older than you. Good Lord.

Keion Henderson:

But you Look. You look 10 years younger than me, though.

Kim:

I didn't hear you. What'd you say?

Keion Henderson:

I'm gonna say it again. I said you look 10 years younger.

Kim:

Listen, the older I get, the more I become like my mother and my grandmother who's in heaven. And they are such strong women of faith. I have learned to milk, take and accept and believe every compliment given to me. So I appreciate that. But lazy Love, let's just start out with your ministry. Because I want to say everybody, whether they are believers or not, y'all need to follow this man. Because you're not only giving the word, which you know, I'm a believer. From my rooter to my tutor.

Kim:

Honey, God is good, but you give practical application in how to live in this psycho crazy, assaulting, trauma world we live in. You're bringing the spirit of God to us. Why do you think your church is one of the fastest growing churches in America right now?

Keion Henderson:

Well, obviously, number one, I would have to say, and it's not semantics, I would have to say all glory to God, right? He just picks who he wants to pick and he does what he wants to do and I'm just the vessel that he decides to use. But I do have to steward, right? I have to take care of that assignment. So what I've discovered is that on any given day I'm going to be talking to three, four, sometimes five generations. And I've got to figure out a way how to take the same message and allow five people to hear it at the same time and walk away with something that is relevant to them. So that's number one, I think just a way to practically explain the word of God. Number two, my ministry is for the people who've been overlooked. And see, I think that a majority of people in the world fit that space. So my job is to find the people who are overlooked and tell them that they can do more than enough.

Kim:

Define overlooked.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah. So it's that person who was born to a single mother who didn't meet their father. It's that person who maybe their mother was in their life, but she was an alcoholic. Perhaps. It's that person who was an orphan and was raised by somebody that they didn't meet until they were seven. It's that person who lost their job because an industry went across the waters, but they were a good employee. It's that person who's been body shamed. It's that person who has contemplated suicide.

Keion Henderson:

Because a lot of those things I either experienced or have some intimate knowledge about. So when I find a person that other folks have given up on, I have an innate desire and draw to make sure that that person realizes that what people said about them is a lie. Because I think that there is substance in every human and that there is something in every person that is valuable. It just takes the right person to tap into it.

Kim:

And you know what? Because I, I've been a believer for a long time, been walking with the Lord since the Age of seven. And, you know, I've had my ups and downs and God knows I have been overlooked numerous times. But when you say that's the majority of us, it truly really is Pain is pain. Right?

Keion Henderson:

Right.

Kim:

And people do feel forgotten more than ever. In a world where love and connection and the Internet and we can connect. Why do you think that's the case? We're so technologically there. There's more churches on every street corner more than ever. Why do you think that people are feeling overlooked today?

Keion Henderson:

Because we have so many options to look at. I don't think that it starts today. Remember, in Luke, chapter two, the Bible says that the parents of Jesus took him to the custom of the feast, and then when it was over, they went back home and they left Jesus. So here, here is the savior of the world, the only person to ever be born of a virgin. And he was overlooked. His parents had to go back and find him teaching doctors and lawyers. And he says, don't worry about it, because when you left me, it was when I found my assignment. I must be about my father's business.

Keion Henderson:

So I believe that it is God's design for us to spend moments in quarantine because you have to know who you are before people tell you. So we live in this world of all of these options. Everybody's going to restaurants, filming meals, and taking pictures in front of cars that don't belong to them. Taking pictures in front of houses that don't belong to them. And so we have this media snapshot that people have what we don't have. And so we build our lives around somebody's highlight reels, and it's not their reality. And so now we feel insecure because I don't drive that, I don't live there, I can't eat there. And it's not true.

Keion Henderson:

Nobody's life is as it appears. We all have ups and downs. So I think that we do so many, so much measuring against a created facade that people have created for us. And it makes us feel insecure. But we're all just human beings trying to make it from day to day.

Kim:

Amen. You are so practical. And so it's so deep. Your messages and your social media content and everything that I consume that you put out is so deep and rich in grounding, in theology, but it's so simple. Do you think you know a book like this when you say lazy love? I get exactly what that means. Because my daddy used to always say, girl, you in the people business. You know, Jesus was in the People business. What has given you this passion for people?

Keion Henderson:

Ooh, wow. You know, there's a scripture and the Bible says that the rejection rejected stone became the chief cornerstone. So if I could just go back and be quite honest, I have been so left out in my life that I have a propensity to be drawn to people who are so. I was raised by a single mother who worked at Taco bell. She made $6 an hour and raised four kids. I never lived in anything that I don't think my mom was proud that we lived anywhere we live. Like my wife and I was just talking the other day and Kim, this is the truth. I started to count all of the places that I lived in my life until I graduated high school.

Keion Henderson:

I think I got to like 15 places. Like, we were either losing a place or moving to a place. It was just rough. And we were in Gary, Indiana, which is or was one of the most impoverished places in America. Not to mention that my father was well to do, but because he and my mother were not in relationship, he didn't help to raise, nurture, feed, clothe anything with me. And we lived five minutes away from each other. So I spent my whole life feeling left behind and left out. And I spent the first 20 plus odd years of my life being angry as a result of that, until I met a man named Terne Jordan.

Keion Henderson:

He was a pastor in the city where I went to college. And he took me on like a godson. And he literally told me one day, he said, you can continue to live beneath the gift that you have, aiming it at a man who didn't do what he was supposed to do, or you can thank God that what you went through didn't destroy you and that you've met somebody like me who can carry you the rest of the way. He said, you can get bitter or you can get better. And I decided that I was going to get better. And this is the God's honest truth. He will tell you this story today. He lives in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Keion Henderson:

We are still in relationship to this day. I've known him since I was 18 years old. We still talk to this day because he was pivotal and instrumental in letting me know that it is not how you start, it is how you finish. So I got up, I literally picked myself up and said, I'm going to make something out of myself. Come hell or high water, I am going to. I'm going to fight. And I got. And I had to flush a lot of insecurity out.

Keion Henderson:

I had to flush a lot of that stuff out of me. And it didn't go away just because I made declarations. I had to do the work. But that's why a book like Lazy Love comes to me. Because I had been loved lazily, which in turn made me show up in love lazily.

Kim:

But. But this gentleman did not love you in a lazy way.

Keion Henderson:

No, he did not. He came and grabbed me. He was a pastor of a church called Progressive Church, and I was also pastoring a church in that same city. And our church was growing. Like, this isn't my first church. I actually started a church when I was in college. I played Division 1 college basketball at a school called Purdue Fort Wayne University in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I played basketball and I had a fast growing church.

Keion Henderson:

We started with five people. It was at 600 while I was in school. But he had a huge church and he had no insecurity. And he grabbed me and said, everything that I know I'm going to teach you. But see, when you are bitter, you can't take lessons from people who are better. See, this is the first thing that people have to understand that you can't be bitter and better at the same time. You got to choose one.

Kim:

Don't you think we all are craving and desperate for this kind of relational connection that only the love of God can give? And don't you think also Keion, that. That the time is now more than ever to show that to people? Like. Like, let's just start. Define lazy love and then tell me how we're going to find. Find out what it. What we need to do if we're experiencing it in this.

Keion Henderson:

So. So a lazy love is when you decide to love a person based on the trauma triggers that you have. Right. So if, if you were rejected by somebody growing up, lazy love says, well, I'm not going to pursue you because I am afraid to be rejected. Because I was rejected. I was 10, 12, 14. See, lazy love allows me to build my life around my trauma as opposed to my gift. That's lazy.

Keion Henderson:

You have to fight. Now I'll tell you where I got the definition of lazy love. It was serendipitous. I was writing a sermon for. What's that holiday in February? Valentine's Day. Lord, my wife's gonna kill me. I was writing this ceremony for Valentine's Day.

Zac:

You're allowed to forget Valentine's Day in April. That's okay. That's totally okay.

Kim:

Yes, we're past it. We're past it.

Keion Henderson:

Yes, we're past it. I promise you, I Won't forget it in February. But right now, I'm thinking about Mother's Day.

Kim:

We moving on?

Keion Henderson:

Yeah. I was writing a sermon for Valentine's Day, and the Lord gave me a revelation. The Bible says that beware of the sloth. And I started to study what the sloth actually meant. And so I discovered, you know, sloth, it's always moving slow. It's always moving slow. Slow. But did you know that one of the reasons the sloth moves slow is because the leaf that it eats almost makes it feel high? The same way marijuana affects a human.

Keion Henderson:

The leaf that you see a sloth eating in some parts of the world is actually doing the same thing to them. So they're not moving slow because they're slow. They're moving slow because of what they consume. And that's where I got the title. Lazy love. That sometimes we show up slow in love and lazily in love because of the trauma that we consume. When you're married to a woman or when you are birthed by a woman who was married to a man who hurt her, and she says to you, you can't trust me because all men are dogs. See, that's.

Keion Henderson:

That's. You're feeding that to somebody who. Who hasn't yet had to. But when they grow up, they hear all men are dogs. So, yeah, are you. All men are untrustworthy. So. So sometimes we show up in love based on what we were fe.

Keion Henderson:

Fed by people who failed at it.

Kim:

So how do we not be lazy?

Keion Henderson:

Okay, so this is what you have to do. You have to go back and you have to find out what we call attachment styles. Okay, you. Everybody write that down. Attachment styles.

Kim:

Write it down. Write it down.

Keion Henderson:

Write it down. An attachment style. And you can Google it. There are four different attachment styles. When you discover what your attachment style is, it will define for you how you show up in love. So, for instance, there is a secure attachment style. Secure attachment style.

Kim:

Okay, see, he's preaching. Y'all get your pins out. All right, there's attachment.

Keion Henderson:

I'm actually going to pull up some notes too. So that way, if we're going to.

Kim:

Do it, I want to hear this, because people going to get the book, but they don't want it right now while they're listening. So you gotta find your attachment style.

Keion Henderson:

Right?

Kim:

Okay, so what you're saying is this attack, this attachment style determines how we. What?

Keion Henderson:

This is attachment style so determines your thoughts about yourself. Okay, does that make sense?

Kim:

Listen, it does.

Keion Henderson:

So. So I say this in the book now There are both negative and positive attachment styles. So you got to start there.

Kim:

Okay.

Keion Henderson:

How we think about ourselves was determined by who raised us. And that's the truth.

Kim:

Yeah.

Keion Henderson:

It's a scientific fact. Okay, so. So thoughts about ourself. Okay. If you. If you think of it of an axis, you. You think thoughts about ourself, but then talking about relationships, that axis meets with thoughts about our partner. Does that make sense?

Kim:

It does.

Keion Henderson:

Okay, so the first one is what I call. Well, what the. What the authors call a secure attachment. Secure attachment is when you were raised to have healthy boundaries, when you were taught that trust is mutual and supported. It's when you were taught that there is nothing wrong with having conflict, but all conflict has to be controlled by temper, you know? Okay. Because some people, you live in a house where you just go off. No, you have to decide before the conflict starts. We can't go that far.

Keion Henderson:

I can't call you out of your name. I can't walk out of the house. I can't leave. See, you got to make sure that.

Kim:

You'Re stepping on my toes. You're stepping on my toes. Now I'm convicted. I need to repent. Here we go. Okay. No, I love it. I love it.

Kim:

How many people are in that secure Come from that secure attachment? Is that a low number?

Keion Henderson:

I would imagine it's a low number. It is one of the. It is probably the healthiest form of attachment style and probably has the lowest percentage of people in it. Why? Because you would have had to be raised by a minimum of two people who understood something about secure attachment.

Kim:

Right. But can. But hopefully we can get there. We can get there.

Keion Henderson:

Oh, yes. Yeah. Because that's why I wrote the book. The book is to help you. You gotta get the book because the book is going to help you where others have failed you.

Kim:

Okay, number two. I am like, writing down. Seriously with my sharpie.

Keion Henderson:

Okay, number two. And this is. This is in no particular order. There's another one called anxious attachment style.

Kim:

Oh, Lord.

Keion Henderson:

Now, this is where a lot of us are. Here's how you define that. Fear of abandonment.

Kim:

Come on.

Keion Henderson:

So you can't succeed in a relationship when you're scared that it's going to be over before it starts. Need for constant validation.

Kim:

Oh, but now you speaking to a lot of people there. We're hungry for that.

Keion Henderson:

Absolutely. That's why social media is so big and so dangerous, because we need to be validated by people who don't even know us. Yeah.

Kim:

I wonder why. Keion. I really wonder why We. Is that. Is that part of. I mean, it's the God void, for sure. And we're always looking to fill it with something, and we're always looking to fill it. But that validation thing is huge.

Kim:

It's huge.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, it's huge. Now, let me. Let me give you a stab at it. Now, remember, somebody like you and I were going to be raised by baby boomers, and they were at work while we were at home. So we were not validated because their perspective was, I put food on the table, I put clothes on your back. Okay? So now here we are, raised by absent parents, left in the house to be raised by an older sibling.

Kim:

Yeah.

Keion Henderson:

Or a babysitter whose responsibility is to watch you but not help you to find your identity.

Kim:

Right, right.

Keion Henderson:

Latchkey kids. You know, we had a key around our neck at seven years old, staying at home, walking through the front door.

Kim:

Honest to God, I had two working parents. I mean, I was eight. Can you imagine leaving your children at eight years old? I mean, I'm such a helicopter parent now. I'm more than anxious. I am a helicop. Can you imagine?

Keion Henderson:

Yeah.

Kim:

Seven, eight years old. We were at home by ourselves.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah. And I remember us having to walk to the laundromat. I was walking clothes from the laundromat at eight years old, five and six blocks. And she wouldn't let us dry the clothes because we didn't have enough money. So I was carrying baskets of wet clothes home in the wintertime. Okay, now watch this.

Kim:

I'm just saying to myself, now I know why you the way you are.

Keion Henderson:

Okay, okay, but watch what you said. You said, now I'm a helicopter. Because what we end up doing is what we don't get. We overdo.

Kim:

Oh, honey, I'm so bad at it, too.

Keion Henderson:

No, you're not. No, you're not. You're not.

Kim:

Keion. I overdo everything. More is more is my whole philosophy in life.

Zac:

But, Kim, you're a proud helicopter parent. You were saying recently on the show.

Kim:

I know, but now I called you. I need Keion. I needed Keion. I needed him with this attachment in style. I'm telling you, I am blown away by this. I'm loving this.

Keion Henderson:

Watch this. The helicopter is only fun for the people in it. Do you understand how much downdraft comes from the people who are not in the helicopter? Listen, helicopter blades, they stir up all kind of stuff. They disturb everything beneath it. The only people who are safe are the ones who are in it.

Kim:

And let me tell you something. Keion, I'm crazy. I'm telling you. Let me tell. I am so healthy and balanced that I know my cray cray. I don't have to. I will admit it to anybody, anywhere. My family is just like.

Kim:

Well, that's just how she is.

Keion Henderson:

That's just Kim. That's just Kion.

Kim:

Yeah. This makes so much sense to me because, you know, I think once we get our age, we're looking for the reasons why we are who we are, and we're busy about what God has us doing. But I gotta tell you, you're ministering to people right now. Y'all got to get this book. Okay, Go to number three. Go to number three.

Keion Henderson:

Let me give you the last one with the anxious attachment style, because this is a big one.

Kim:

Okay. All right.

Keion Henderson:

We depend on our partners for self worth. That is a huge one.

Kim:

Can I ask. Can I ask you this? Does. Does this fit into this, too? Not only do we depend on our partners, but we depend on our work or our accomplishment to would that fit into the anxious.

Keion Henderson:

I wish you would have told me that before I wrote the book, because I would have said that there are metaphors for this. Cause what is the partner? Right? What is the partner?

Kim:

Okay. What is the partner? I'm writing this down.

Keion Henderson:

I like that. I like that. I just learned something. I need to write that down myself because you scared me.

Kim:

Write it down. Because I feel like. Because I found out for me, you know, Because I do think I fall in line with this. I haven't heard the other two attachments. It ain't secure, I can tell you that. So we passed that. We were trying crying for that. We're going to pray about that.

Kim:

But I tell you a lot of times, and I had great parents, and I'm so blessed to have the childhood I had or whatever. But as you're saying these things, the validation part really spoke to my spirit. And I never looked for it from a man or from a partner. But I did end wanting the atta girl praise accomplishment from that competitive spirit that I had to prove. So. So the partner can be anything is what you're saying?

Keion Henderson:

No. You said that you were the brilliant person who brought that to the table.

Kim:

No, I won't take credit for that. That's amazing.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, that was absolutely amazing.

Kim:

But it's true. It's true, right?

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely amazing. You know, the partner is a metaphor. You gave me something, so I'm going to study that deeper.

Kim:

I cannot wait to get to your church in person. Like, whenever I'M in your area. I'm going. I'm telling y'all, I've got to follow this man. And I don't say that lightly. Y'all know I don't. But I mean that from. Cause I'll tell you, our audience, we have such a huge, massive audience.

Kim:

We're so blessed. And the calls that I get and the people that are searching for this love that you talk of, and it's the love of Jesus for sure, but it's also the love of one another. Like, we're. We need to love each other. Right? That's why.

Keion Henderson:

Do you want to know why? You have a huge audience and this isn't. This isn't a therapy session, But I'm telling you that those people who follow you can feel the gravitational pull of love that you have for them. See, you love them the same way you love the kids. You're not going to bring them somebody who can't help them. You're not going to release content that can't lift them. So they come to you the same way your children do. Because, see, here it is. We are who we are.

Keion Henderson:

It doesn't matter who we're loving. How you do anything is how you do everything.

Kim:

We are who we are. It doesn't matter who we're loving.

Keion Henderson:

No, you are who you are.

Kim:

That's what you just said.

Keion Henderson:

That's exactly what I said. Everywhere you go, there you are. How you do anything is how you do everything. You don't flip a switch and become somebody different. We are, for the most part, consistent, whether we want to admit it or not, in all of the things that we do.

Kim:

Dude. And can I just say, the older I get and the closer I draw to the Lord, like I said, I've been walking with a long time. He is so real, and he is so. And you're going to be able to say this way better than me. And he is so right now.

Keion Henderson:

Yes.

Kim:

I mean, this. I mean, it's like he wrote the word for right. Flipping now.

Keion Henderson:

Absolutely.

Kim:

Would you agree with that? Okay.

Keion Henderson:

I would. And, you know, we got. We got so much going on, Kim. It's like everybody's fighting about who the president is. Everybody's fighting about, you know, global warming. Everybody's fighting about, you know, the economy. Like, what are we doing? Like, what. What are we doing? Okay.

Keion Henderson:

You didn't get the person you wanted in office. Okay. But somebody didn't get who they wanted last time. You. You know, we're just so busy fighting. Yeah. We're so divisive and so divisive. And I think that it is the plan of the enemy to have us more focused on our issues and not our commonalities.

Keion Henderson:

Because at the end of the day. At the end of the day, Kim and Keion have more in common than we have as a differentiation, and that's where we ought to be focusing on.

Kim:

Yeah, we're all the same, just in different ways, every single one of us.

Keion Henderson:

Absolutely. Yep. And everybody's fighting for something that you believe in. So.

Kim:

So you got all of the mess, all of this mess. Trying to get on this podcast with you today and last time, and this. That the enemy wanted to stop this. I'm telling you.

Keion Henderson:

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because we have to have unity. So you got. You got. You got. And that's. This is a huge one.

Keion Henderson:

So you got secure attachment. You got anxious. Here's another one. Okay, the next one is called dismissive. Avoidant.

Kim:

Oh, oh, when you said that. I know exactly. Amy, I hope you're listening to this.

Keion Henderson:

Amy, I don't know who you are, but I love you.

Kim:

Amy, you need to know her. Dismissive. What?

Keion Henderson:

Dismissive. Avoidant. That is when people avoid intimacy because they don't want to be vulnerable.

Kim:

Amy, I hope you're listening to this.

Keion Henderson:

Dude, they got commitment issues.

Kim:

Did I just call her out on national tv? Okay, do tell about this one.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, commitment issues. Guarded and closed heart.

Kim:

Okay, now where could this stem from? Cause this is a little bit of my husband, too. I cannot believe I'm throwing them under the bus, but I get you for another, like, 20 minutes, and then I'm milk it as much as I can. So my husband and my very best friend, I would think, have a little bit of this attachment style, and they both lost their parents when they were very, very young in very, very traumatic ways.

Keion Henderson:

There you go.

Kim:

Does that make any sense?

Keion Henderson:

With this makes 100%.

Kim:

Lord.

Keion Henderson:

So here's what they do. They would rather hurt themselves before they give you an opportunity to. It's like, you know what? I don't want you. Not because I don't want you is because I don't want to lose you.

Kim:

Oh, my Keion. And can I tell you, knowing that when you're. You're. You're defining it and knowing that, like, when I'm dealing with them, I'll be able to deal with what? Do you see I'm saying?

Keion Henderson:

Yes, but this is. This is why this is important, because you just took the word. That's the purpose of the book. The purpose of the book. I Want you to recognize it because recognize it shows you how to show up.

Kim:

Because I think at the end of the day, we all want these healthy, flourishing, loving, real. Okay? I'm not saying it's all, you know, flowers and sunshine, but we all want that con, that tight connection, love.

Keion Henderson:

That's right, 100%. So let's get to the last one. Secure attachment, anxious attachment, Dismissive, avoidant. And here's the last one. Fearful avoidant. Fear of rejection. Hard time trusting people, which often leads to low self esteem.

Kim:

What causes that?

Keion Henderson:

What causes the fearful avoidance, huh? That is an attachment style that I have, or I should say struggle with because I was rejected by my father. And so I lived a lot of my life fearing rejection. So I didn't put myself in position to have intimacy because I had a forethought. It won't last. Can I tell you right now, this is how I knew I was struggling with it? Yesterday at 6pm, I returned a call that I had received at 9 in the morning. I was at work yesterday all day long. I mean, all day. I got home and I said, okay, let me call back my friend.

Keion Henderson:

My friend's name is Gardner Parker and Gardner is 83 years old. He's one of my best friends. I mean, we, we used to go out to eat together. Me, him, his wife, Mia. My wife. I'm serious. Like him. You're talking about a friend.

Keion Henderson:

We would stay out to three in the morning sometimes at restaurants. We couldn't believe how vibrant he was. So he calls me yesterday at 6 o'clock and he says, keon. Well, he calls me at nine. I return the call, I listen to his voicemail. He says, call me back, it's urgent.

Kim:

Oh, God.

Keion Henderson:

Okay. So I felt my fearful avoidant. It just started rising up because I'm like. The first thing I said to myself is, this is why I don't like to get close to people. What's the bad news? See, this is what I'm. This is what I'm saying to myself.

Kim:

Okay, no, I get it, I get it.

Keion Henderson:

And I call him and he says to me, I have two days to live.

Kim:

No. And you knew it in your soul. You knew something was coming.

Keion Henderson:

I knew it and I started. I almost slipped back into my dysfunction of saying, see, this is why I don't like to get close to people because I'm going to lose them. And he said to me, he said, will you do my funeral? And you're talking about one of the most influential and impactful people in our city. He's going to have thousands of people at his funeral. And he asked me would I do it? And I said yes. And he cried. So much so that his wife took the phone. And I never.

Keion Henderson:

I'm going to go see him when I'm done with you today. I never heard his voice again. He couldn't recover. And I almost slipped back into my dysfunction of saying, see, this is.

Kim:

This is why I don't get.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, so it comes as a result of what has happened. But I'm going over there today because this is me not being lazy. I will not have lazy love. I'm going to get in my car and I'm going to go drive to his house and he's going to be in hospice and I'm going to look him in his eye and tell him I love him. I'm going to kiss him on his forehead. I'm a hug my buddy because that's me getting out of my lazy love dysfunction. Doing the uncomfortable. Even if it makes you cry, I.

Kim:

Wanna say, keon, I've got a prediction to make about this book because I believe it's going to be huge. I know that your call is huge and I've turned everybody on to you on social media. I love social media for that fact. Cause, I mean, I will go listen to your sermons. I can't be in your town to go to your church. But that's part of why I love technology, is because you're there preaching and teaching and I'm listening and learning and everybody watching has got to go out and get this book. I mean, you were just scratching the surface of everything that's in here. And I don't say that much, Keion, about books.

Kim:

I'm like, yes, Kath. You know what I'm saying? Like, everybody got a book, right? Everybody got a book and I love it. Everybody keep on writing books. But this one here is for such a time as this and we need it more. People feel loveless. They feel like. But you know what I'm hearing is what you put in is what you get out.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, yeah. So. So the Bible says that there are. You remember, Kim, in the Bible when it says that there are seven deadly sins?

Kim:

Yeah. Oh, Lord. Honey, I got about. I got a few of them.

Keion Henderson:

Oh, don't we all, don't we all, don't we all. There's nobody listening to us who doesn't. But the Bible says there's seven deadly sins. And it is not a verse. It is more of a pericope. It's an ideology. Right. So you.

Keion Henderson:

You know that this is a theme. There's no scripture that says it individually. But there is the pride of life, right? There is greed. There is wrath. There's envy. There is lust. There's gluttony. This is the thing that broke the book open for me.

Keion Henderson:

When the Bible talks about the seven deadly sins. Pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust and gluttony. All six of those have to do with too much of something, right? Pride is a over zealous thought of yourself. Greed is wanting too much. Raft is too much anger. Lust is too much unhealthy desire. Gluttony is greedy. Only the only one that's different is the sloth.

Keion Henderson:

Not enough of something. Lazy. Not enough energy. Not enough. So. So sin is not just overdoing it. Sin can sometimes be under doing it. Right? So.

Kim:

This is so deep. Y'all know what I said? You're very deep. But is bite sight. I mean, we're eating the elephant one bite at a time.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah.

Kim:

It's like it's digestible.

Keion Henderson:

When. When your children grow up, they'll never say I wasn't loved. They'll never say my mom didn't care for me. They'll never say I was rejected. They'll never say it. They'll never say it. What they will say is, hey, I had healthy boundaries. I would imagine that in your home, mutual respect is absolutely imperative.

Keion Henderson:

We don't disrespect each other. I suspect that conflict is controlled like. No, we're not.

Kim:

Well, I'm working and praying about that.

Keion Henderson:

I was talking about the kids, not you.

Kim:

Yeah, kids are great. Kids are. I'm a little touched by an angel, but kids are great.

Keion Henderson:

Kim, I love you. You are hilarious. You are amazing.

Kim:

I gotta tell you how much I love you. And I love your wife, too.

Kim:

I'm gonna show you. I have. Hold on. Just hold the line.

Keion Henderson:

Okay. Okay.

Kim:

This book, too. We didn't talk about this book.

Keion Henderson:

Wow.

Kim:

Both books. Yeah. Yeah.

Keion Henderson:

That book is something else, right?

Kim:

That book is so. I mean, you start with this one, y'all, and then start going through the library of Keion Henderson because you're going to be. You're going to be. It's. You're gonna have takeaways. It's not just reading material. It's more than knowledge. It is truths that are biblically based but practically used.

Kim:

And to me, that is what your ministry's all about. And I'm gonna go further. It's more than a ministry, Keion. I think It's a calling. I know. It's God. He picked you out. He picked you out.

Keion Henderson:

Well, I mean, thank you. I mean, sometimes I don't feel that way.

Kim:

Well, I know, but you got to trust us. So the Cry Out Convention is this annual thing you do? Keion. It's just happened, but it happens annually. Right.

Keion Henderson:

So the Cry Out Conference, and I mean, it was absolutely amazing. We had spiritual speakers like John F. Hannah, Latrice Ryan, Samuel Rodriguez. We had cultural people. Kurt Franklin Madison, Ryan ward, Dion Sanders, D.C. young flocks.

Kim:

Oh, my gosh. Deion Sanders is like a brother from another mother, him and I. You tell Dion that. Oh, my gosh, I can't wait. I'm gonna text him when we get off. Say that you wrong. Okay. That's my dude.

Kim:

Him and I almost did a talk show together. I love that man. Like a brother.

Keion Henderson:

Yes, he is the real deal.

Kim:

So are you. This is not. This is so. I can't wait to meet your wife. I've got to meet her, too. All right, go ahead, tell us.

Keion Henderson:

It was amazing. It was a one stop shop and we do it every year. So for all of y'all who didn't get a chance to attend it because you didn't hear about it, I want you to go to our website, cryoutcon.com. it already is up. It'll show you where we are, the city we're gonna be in. And let me tell you, we made a. We are taking the conference in 2026 to Jackson, Mississippi. And the reason why we're doing that is because we want people from Atlanta and Memphis and Nashville and New Orleans, all of those drive up markets.

Keion Henderson:

We're going to be right in your area. And the reason we did that is because the big cities always get the big stuff. But we wanted to take it to a market and bring it to some folks who don't get it every day. And we're bringing it to Jackson, Mississippi.

Kim:

Y'all have gotta go check it out. You've gotta go get the book Lazy Love. And also check out the library of books, because there are so many just practical teachings in a biblical godly based, from a point of view of that. All right, Keion, before you go. I do this with every single guest I have. I do what I call the rapid fire questions. And so I know you ain't gonna have no problem doing this. So what comes up comes out.

Kim:

Rapid fire questions. What's the last thing you googled?

Keion Henderson:

Oh, my God. Luther Vanjo's song. I just googled the Lyrics to a Luther Vanjo song.

Kim:

He was just magic. His voice was just like, I love him. Okay, I do, too. Well, obviously, it sounded like it was probably a little romantical song. There you go.

Keion Henderson:

So I was singing it to my wife, so I had to find the words.

Kim:

All right. That is not lazy love. Okay, here we go. What's your guilty pleasure?

Keion Henderson:

Oh, Gushers.

Kim:

The gummy candy with the stuff.

Zac:

That's lovely. I haven't thought about Gushers in 20 years. That's amazing.

Keion Henderson:

You need to think about them. They got a sour flavor now. Amazing.

Kim:

Wait a minute. Keion, you have children? How old are your kids?

Keion Henderson:

None of them are young enough for me to have that in the house. My youngest is 12, but yes, yes, I'll go through a box in a week.

Kim:

Bless it. Okay. Just pray over them and they'll be healthy. Okay. What's one thing you should probably. This is a good one. Take less seriously?

Keion Henderson:

Criticism.

Kim:

Wow.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah.

Kim:

Now you are reading my mail at every turn. Okay, here we go. What's the most rewarding thing about your job as a pastor?

Keion Henderson:

Seeing people actually accomplish what I believe they could do.

Kim:

You get to see that often when.

Keion Henderson:

They tell me, I met you a year ago and I was living with my mom, but I put to use what you said, and now I own a business. Like, that stuff drives me crazy. I love it.

Kim:

Well, that's the practicality. I keep saying that to you. If you're looking for mentor pastor, biblical teaching, life coaching meets mentorship, this, Keion is your guy. I'm telling y'all. All the young men, listen to this. All the mothers and the grandmothers who have young men who need a strong man in their life to point them the way. You need to turn them on to Keion on his social media and everything. I'm telling you, a mentor don't have to be somebody you talk to in person.

Kim:

If. If someone could play you in a movie, who would it be? Okay, I've got a lot of. Yeah, I get a lot of guys. Okay.

Keion Henderson:

Who would it be? Oh, my God. I would say Michael B. Jordan.

Zac:

That's a good one.

Kim:

And why would you not? What's one thing you would do if you could do different in your life?

Keion Henderson:

I would assume that I could go further much faster. I think I was too conservative out of fear.

Kim:

Me too. Why do we do that?

Keion Henderson:

Attachment styles.

Kim:

Get the book, people. Get the book.

Zac:

Wait, Keion, what's your attachment styles? Can we ask that? Are we allowed to ask?

Kim:

Oh, it's the anxious one.

Keion Henderson:

It's the anxious.

Kim:

I've already. I've already attached to everybody in my family. I know exactly who they are.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah.

Zac:

All right.

Keion Henderson:

It's the ancient. All right. I'm the anxious. Anxious. Avoidant.

Kim:

And you know what? I'm very confrontational. I'm scrappy.

Keion Henderson:

You know why?

Kim:

So I'd love to know. Yes, please tell me.

Keion Henderson:

I think that you're so afraid of being hurt. It's what you do to keep from feeling it. Because I think that underneath that you are absolutely as soft and tender as anybody.

Kim:

Weak as rainwater.

Keion Henderson:

I can. I can. I sense. I can see love and compassion. See, you're not a. You said helicopter. You didn't say fighter jet. So.

Keion Henderson:

So hovering. Hovering takes love. You can't. You. You gotta. If to stay. You gotta love. So I just think.

Keion Henderson:

I just think that you don't want to be hurt, so you just kind of protect yourself that way.

Kim:

And I have been so loved and been so given grace and mercy by the Lord. And when you've been touched so deep by him, you want everybody to have it.

Keion Henderson:

That's correct. That's correct.

Kim:

What is your favorite junk food? Sweet and salty.

Keion Henderson:

Sweet. I'm going back to the main gusher.

Kim:

Mine is gushers. Minus gushers.

Keion Henderson:

I gotta have something else sour. Oh, not such a sour guy. But I would say sour patches.

Kim:

You've got a type. You've got a type of.

Keion Henderson:

Yep, that's right.

Kim:

All right. And salty.

Keion Henderson:

Salty. Have you ever had voodoo chips?

Kim:

No.

Keion Henderson:

Oh, my goodness.

Kim:

What?

Keion Henderson:

Incredible. Incredible.

Zac:

Are they spicy?

Keion Henderson:

Yeah, that's the boot. It's like this. It's the seasoning. And I don't know what's made. I don't even know the name of it. My wife buys them by the. By the. By the package.

Keion Henderson:

And I just eat them whenever. See, this is what I try to do every night. My wife has popcorn every night. She eats popcorn before she goes to bed every day. So I try not to eat it. And she says, are you sure you don't want a snack? And then I'm like, okay, I eat one with you. So whenever I give in, that's what I'll do.

Kim:

There's nothing like at the end of the night, sitting with your spouse and eating a snack and watching something on tv.

Keion Henderson:

Watching Naked and Afraid.

Kim:

You're watching Naked and Afraid every episode.

Keion Henderson:

It's a new season out, by the way. For anybody who's listening.

Kim:

Would you ever do Naked and Afraid?

Keion Henderson:

We said we would do it. I absolutely know I won't survive. I will not Survive. Number one. If one mosquito bites me, I'm tapping out number two. I can't drink dirty water. I'm tapping out number three. But you could be naked.

Kim:

But you could be naked.

Keion Henderson:

None of that matters. I don't care about that. The food and the temperature and the water. I am done. Okay. I can't start a fire. But we swear we can make it. Yeah, we swear we could.

Kim:

Okay. Let me just tell you, if y'all go on Naked and Afraid. Zac. Zac used to work on Big Brother. Zac, if you know anybody on Naked and Fright, you have got to hook Keion and his wife up.

Zac Miller:

I do. I almost got hired for a show very similar to that, and I was like, I can't handle it. No, I can't be in the. Because they wanted me to. They were like, you're going to have to be in a tent in Alaska for three months. I was like, card pass.

Keion Henderson:

Oh, my goodness.

Kim:

Naked?

Zac:

No, no. I was going to be on the crew, but the crew is going to be intense in Alaska, too.

Kim:

Yeah. Y'all, I think the naked part would have me. I would be. That would just. I'd be like, peace out. Okay. Who is your celebrity crush?

Keion Henderson:

Used to be. What's the. What's the lady from Columbiana? Can I Google her?

Kim:

Google?

Keion Henderson:

Oh, yeah. Zoe Saldana.

Kim:

Yes. Okay. What is your favorite Bible verse?

Keion Henderson:

Bible passage, Psalms 91:16. I will satisfy him with long life, and I will satisfy him with my salvation.

Kim:

And last but not least, what's the next shift in your life?

Keion Henderson:

I am going to go from being a son in the faith to a father in the faith. I'm starting to see a lot of people as I age who are looking to me for guidance, and I have to take that serious. So I have to find out what version of father I'm going to be so that I can help the people who are what I used to be.

Kim:

Well, it sounds like you're getting ready to go and say goodbye to one of your fathers in the faith.

Keion Henderson:

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's one of the ways, you know, it's a transition, right? Yep.

Kim:

All right. You gotta come back. I just adore you. And bring. Bring the wife and the gushers with you.

Keion Henderson:

Absolutely. I will have a pack because there's going to be some in this house. No matter when the next time we get together, there are going to be some here. So I'll bring my wife and some gushers.

Kim:

You gotta bring your wife and gushers. Y'all got to go follow Keion Henderson. Everywhere. Pastor Keion Henderson. Pastor Keion. That is your handle. Go follow his YouTube channel. I'm telling you, it will change your life.

Kim:

Pastor Keion tv. And make sure you get all his books. But the one out now is called Lazy Love. You're going to love it and it's going to change your life.

Keion Henderson:

Wait.

Kim:

Ready?

Zac:

Don't be lazy, get lazy love. Don't be lazy. Go buy the book. That's good.

Kim:

No, I'm going to say that. Zac, hold on. So don't be lazy and go get lazy Love. Thanks, Zac, for writing that. Bye, Keion.

Kim:

Zac Miller is the Executive Producer of the Kim Gravel Show. His production company is Uncommon Audio. Our Producer is Kathleen Grant, the Brunette Exec. Production help from Emily Bredin and Sara Noto. Our cover art is designed by Sanaz Huber at Memarian Creative. Our show is edited by Mike Kligerman. Our guest intros are performed by Roxy Reese. Our guest booking is done by Central Talent Booking. Our ads are furnished by True Native Media. And y'all, I want to give a big huge thank you to the entire team at QVC+ and a special thank you to our audience for making this community so strong. If you are still listening then you must have liked a few episodes along the way. So tell somebody about it. Tell somebody about this show and join our mailing list at kimgravelshow.com. I cannot do this show without you and so I thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening. I hope you gain a little bit of encouragement, light and love love from watching and listening to The Kim Gravel Show. I love you all so much. Till next time. Bye.